Maya Gwynn
With KVCR Public Media, I'm Maya Gwynn with Black Perspectives IE, a show where we learn about the amazing things members of the Black community are doing in the Inland Empire. My guest today is Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins, educator, author, speaker, media critic, thought leader, the Inaugural Director of Strategic media and advocacy for Rainbow Pride Youth Alliance, and creator of the Webby and Shorty honored Black Fat Femme podcast. Thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Hi. Thank you for having me excited to be here.
Maya Gwynn
I'm so excited to talk to you. So we're gonna start with your book. You mentioned in your book Black Fat Femme that you wrote it for the 16-year-old kid in the south who's struggling to find themselves, which is a powerful and generous sentiment for, I think, adults as well. What was the first piece of media that made you feel seen and reminded you that you weren't alone?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
So kind of going back to, you know, my childhood. So I mean, as much as I wrote it for the South, right, there are a lot of kids in SoCal who don't see themselves either, right? And so I really wanted folks to be able to see themselves in that. But I will say the first piece of media that really got me really kind of just being like, Oh, someone who looks and lives like me exist - was really Next Top Model seeing Andre Leon Talley on that show, right? I had seen iterations of queer people, but they were all stereotypical. I had never seen an actually queer, non-binary person like in the flesh, being themselves and so on that show, seeing Andre and seeing how he, you know, really owned so much of himself. It really inspired me to be like, Oh, I actually can like who I am. That's cool.
Maya Gwynn
Yeah, for sure. As someone who writes and lectures on liberation for black, queer and fat, non-binary people, what do you feel is most misunderstood about these communities?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
I love this question, because I think people see our identities as separate, right? I think there's this misconception that you have to choose one or the other, and I hear this a lot. I had an experience a couple of years ago when I worked in higher ed a woman came into my office and was like, ‘Hey, Jon, I have a question, are you black today or queer today?’ And it was very much her trying to figure out what pocket I was in, right? And I had looked at her and I said, Well, I don't know how much you know about Kimberle Crenshaw On Intersectionality, but my lived experiences, they cross at all times. Like there's no way that you can separate my blackness from my queerness, because both of them inform each other, right? And so I think a lot of times, people try to do that. They want to understand your blackness, they want to understand your queerness. They want to understand my fatness. They can never see them as congruent, or they can never see them being intersecular or being connected. And I think it's imperative for me to remind people that when you meet someone like myself, when you meet someone who is very proud to be who they are, it's understanding how much we've had to fight to find ourselves in those intersections and stand at those intersections because the world is trying to do is break them apart so they can kind of pit them against one another.
Maya Gwynn
They're trying to understand it, but it's expansive.
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Yeah, and so that's one of the biggest things that I've been letting folks know, is that you can't see me without the other. All three of them are who I am, and they inform the way I see the world. And I think that's something that we don't talk enough about, is about how these identities and how the oppression and how the experiences that I've had both in the Inland Empire and not have informed the way that I move throughout and do the work that I do.
Maya Gwynn
How do you feel like specifically, the Inland Empire has shaped that as you accepting all parts of you.
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Well, so a big part, you know, in my book, I talk a lot about growing up in San Bernardino, growing up in the IE, a lot of the way I was raised. The only way I can really talk about it is respectability politics, right? The idea that, you know, I was told, if you're a good black kid, you go to college, you do all of the right things, that the world will somehow open up for you, because you're not like those black people, right? And the reality that I learned very hard living in the Inland Empire was respectability politics was never gonna save me, even with all of the accolades that I've acquired, even with the show, even with the awards, really what it comes down to living in the IE, for me, a lot of times I can feel people looking at me like, how did you get so successful? How did you, quote, unquote, beat the odds of what I believe the Inland Empire to be, and that's why I stay here. That's why I live here. Is because I want folks to be able to kind of rethink and requestion their own inner white supremacist, all of the anti-black ideations that they have around black people. I want to be the person who challenges that for them.
Maya Gwynn
And speaking of the awards, you've collaborated with major brands like Apple, Disney, Amazon, on inclusion projects. What does meaningful representation look like to you?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Representation is not just about having a black body in a room. It's not about having a black queer body in the room. It's, you know, I was liking it to this idea of, you know, when you're invited to a party, I'm that girl that I'm gonna be myself wherever I go, and I want you to allow me to eat the same thing you're eating. I want to dance. I want to have a good time. I want to laugh as loud as I want to laugh. I want to be able to enjoy myself. And I think that's what good representation looks like. When you bring someone into the room and you're allowing them to be themselves. You're allowing them. To actually be a part of the conversation, and I think that's what lacks in a lot of the representation. People want us, but people don't want our story. People don't want our experiences. And I think that's where a lot of the issues lie.
Maya Gwynn
Yeah, the Black Fat Femme podcast has received widespread recognition. What motivated you to create this platform, and how has the response impacted you. Like, have you heard from that 16-year-old kid?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Around 2021, a friend of mine started working at iHeart, and she was like, Hey, we have this program coming up called Next Up. I think you'd be perfect for it. You need to pitch something. I was like, I don't really have anything but this deck that I've been sitting on. So I pitched the book idea to iHeart. And after, you know, getting into the program six to seven months working on it, Black Fat Femme was born. And it was very much this idea, you know, our tagline is: where the intersections of identity are celebrated. It was really this idea of, if I'm going to have a podcast, I don't want to be talking about how terrible the world is every single week. I want to be talking about fun - like Latrice Royale was on last week. We talked about food, and we talked about our favorite places, like I talked about, you know, Taco Bender and Amapola being some of my favorite places to go when I lived here, right? So the whole concept of the show became, I want to sit at the mic and have a good time. We can talk about the hard stuff and we can move through it, but at the same time, I want folks leaving feeling lifted. People will sometimes come to me like, ‘Hey, are you - I think I've seen you.’ But I had never had someone like so excitedly be like, ‘Oh my God, it's Dr. Jon Paul. We're really excited. We love your show. Blah, blah, blah.’ But what really hit me more than just being a listener was he said we have, at the time, they said we have a 14 year old non binary kid, and your show has been helping us inform how we work with them, around their identity. And that was the thing that got me and was like, ‘Oh my God. What I set out to do is, actually, it's happening.’
Maya Gwynn
All right, so we're gonna move to our rapid-fire portion. If your work had a theme song, what would it be?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
“Formation”, Beyonce.
Maya Gwynn
If you had to teach a master class or give a TED talk - I know you've given a TED talk - in a random skill you have silly or serious. What would it be?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
I would probably… oh, it is so elitist. I'm so sorry. Okay, I'm gonna do it because I'm real. I would give a TED talk on how I can tell a Louis Vuitton bag is fake.
Maya Gwynn
Oh, wow, I love that. And but what's your favorite IE restaurant, or just like a landmark that reminds you of the Inland Empire?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
I wish I could go back to the days where I had a really good time at the Orange Show. Anytime I see anything related to the Orange Show, it always kind of reminds me of being a kid with those tickets running around.
Maya Gwynn
And how can people keep up with you and support your work?
Dr. Jonathan Paul Higgins
Well, one they can keep up with me at doctorjonpaul.com. That is where you can find all of the links to buy my book. You can also find my book tour date. You can follow me on social medias at Dr. Jon Paul.
Maya Gwynn
You make me very proud to be from the IE. Dr. Jon Paul Higgins is an educator, author, speaker, media critic, thought leader, and the Inaugural Director of Strategic media and advocacy for Rainbow Pride Youth Alliance and creator of the Webby and Shorty honored Black Fat Femme podcast. Support for the segment comes from the Black Equity Fund at IECF, advancing racial equity and supporting long term investments in black led organizations, and Riverside and San Bernardino counties. Join us again next week for Black Perspectives IE. For KVCR Public Media, I'm Maya Gwynn. Thank you.
